The Evolution of Liberating Structures with Keith McCandless

March 8, 2023


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Our guest, Keith, is co-developer of Liberating Structures and co-author of the book The Surprising Power of Liberating Structures.

He operates a global consulting practice focused on strategy, creative adaptability, and including all voices in shaping next steps. His expertise is grounded in organization development, complexity science, and aesthetics. Keith calls himself a structured improvisationalist. Born in Cincinnati Ohio, he holds a Masters in Management from Brandeis University in Boston and a BA from The Evergreen State College in Olympia, Washington. Keith lives in Seattle with his wife, Anne, and Deacon, a whippet with talent to amuse.

We have seen the catalytic power of conversations in the work that we do, as well as the impact that it brings to our world.

Our Living Room is a space for us to connect, to explore thoughts and learning, in a relaxed and very human way. Through this channel, we look forward to an engaging dialogue and resonance with our guests, and bring a breath of fresh air to the space we occupy in this virtual world.

To our listeners and followers, we hope to create an opportunity to candidly eavesdrop and chime in to one of the many interesting conversations around the space of teal, agile and the future of work.

Living Room Conversations with Keith McCandless

Welcome To Life Sciences living room in the work that we do we have seen the catalytic power of conversations as well as the impact that they bring to our world our living room is a space for us to connect to explore thoughts and learnings in a casual setting to our listeners and followers we hope to create an opportunity to openly exchange on the future of work and we hope that you will get and a breath of fresh air and inspiration welcome to episode 47 of the living room conversation on the evolution of liberating structures I’m Chris ask claveniti your host for today a catalyst at Life Sciences thank you everyone for tuning in to our YouTube and Linkedin live I invite you to join me here in our living room ask your questions in the chat and join me as we welcome today’s guest keep my candles who is the co-developer of liberating structures and the co-author of the book The surprising power of liberating structures simple rules to unleash a culture of innovation Ki Welcome to our living room it’s a great joy to have you with us thank you Chris I’m excited to be here in fact thank you Keith you’ve had an amazing journey with liberating structures so I would love to hear how you started and where you’re going now yeah uh great uh yeah will the work uh I think started with exciting ideas from complexity science you know the theoretical uh I met a guy uh who just retired from a long career in business and um I’d been involved and he started to get involved in um defense Institute you know could we take a new scientific thinking and make it practical in a business set in any setting in an organization and with these wild ideas in our head we started trying to make a difference in organizations and do it in the context of a learning group maybe like the living room you know people who come to learn together um and we got enough experience and the clients actually right down the work and that really started uh 20 years ago uh and so since took us 10 years to get a book written and to feel confident that we had something that was useful and then the last 10 years have been uh people all over the world using the work and uh taking it evolving it to be more useful for this moment in time so that’s that’s the journey it’s really been a a 20-year uh Journey with this work yeah it’s really fascinating how you you take this seriousness of Science and the insights that they can give us into our world and you and you translate them into the Casual setting wanting people to open up tell us more about that this approach that you have to liberate instructors getting everyone to settle in and open up this is the the very interesting part about the power of liberating structures it was not an idea that patched into the brain you know it wasn’t like oh I know what to do so the first time there was a hint of this happening you know the duration happened that people were working at the top of their intelligence as individuals and as a group you know it seemed rare but uh I was in a group of uh about a hundred Healthcare leader big custom and there was no it didn’t have a book and really hadn’t written anything down yet and we were simulated simulating a board meeting in this organization and um there were 10 meters in the center of a circle and then 20 around the outside and then another 50 or 60 in the room um and uh we were using some of the liberating structures without knowing what the structure was and the goal was clear The Liberation every voice heard uh working at their highest intelligence um but what was the structure part so they were having a conversation and we were using something called what I made from you uh and a little bit of a fishbowl uh user experience Fishbowl and uh the CEO stood up threw his arms up just like it was so excited everything we just talked about is a final decision and uh both Henry and I were what you know we had no idea what their experience was and we didn’t hear anything that sounded that good or like a decision and yet their experience was wonderful so we needed to figure out what what just happened for the user what happened well the Fishbowl there was a physical arrangement sort of like delivered you know there was some people behind and Intimacy in the middle but there were almost 100 people in the room what part of that what physical arrangement was useful that’s one of the structures um the other one is how do you ask for help so this particular structure made it possible for a person in the middle an executive trying to figure out a strategy or what to do could look back and ask for help from someone behind them but they didn’t have to look at them for the help they got to ask for help without uh and so these were the clues that uh led to over time putting you know writing down uh what the structural elements are you invited uh how do you use space all of the the details what kind of group configuration is important and we what we were shooting for and in some cases succeeded were the minimum specifications was the least amount of structure needed to unleash every voice to work at the top of their intelligence so that’s you know that’s the that uh we had a research control elsewhere that liberated that was the work that’s the the evolution of the work does that make sense it makes sense beautifully and I think that you have taken us with you in your thinking but it also it opens up the experience for us who have used it for those who have experienced it and for those who are thinking about it because it’s not just you know this science but it’s actually how do you do it and and and the effect that the physical space has around you you have a hundred people and then you have them in the room how do you connect them how do you make sure that it’s a process that invites them all and what is really liberating is at the moment of this structure taking shape it’s everything else is deconstructed and reconstructed again and that’s how you said that oh the decisions were made yes we were in a meeting and the structure helped us to to co-create a decision it was not a meeting that we were listening that we were passive observers or observers or active observers but we were active co-creators I think this is the brilliance where liberating structures take us and they live reflection afterwards um how do you feel about this Legacy that once you go and you use a structure a series of structures a series of workshops what do you think about this Legacy that stays with the group and the team building the Team Dynamics evolving afterwards tell us more about that uh forget about some serious questions that’s good um so it’s a very powerful experience it’s a group flow right like we those are all decisions is in part a reflection of the CEO the leader in charge is every way that they were talking to each other prior to that was not like that at all this was completely different so that feeling that uh you have each other’s back uh that you can get to a result that’s important and critical um is quite overpowering now the people that experienced it can transfer that um set of moments to the facilitator the consultant ever um and so simultaneous what I’m most concerned about is the group does not snap back to the old pattern both patterns small number of people make decisions they don’t ask for help and they do it in a room by themselves or something like that or they use conventional structure which is unwittingly over controlling uh and stifles that are so um you know this well everyone knows it well it’s easy for people to snap back to an old habit and hold pattern so when I’m doing the work when I’m introducing you know working with any client um introducing the structures I’m also teaching what the structure is yeah so they some number of people in the room even if they have had no facilitation training or leadership training or it just doesn’t matter they’re going to be interested enough to want to know how did that happen was there is that was that surprising experience reliable can it be repeated and uh yes the answer is yes uh but you need experience you need to know what the structural elements are so every liberating structure uses the same five uh organizing micro organizing elements and um typically after any activity whether somebody wants to hear it or not I’m speaking to the the people that are already excited and want to learn how to do it um I’ll draw out like well this is the way we organize the room we had an innovation to talk about something that has many right answers but it has to those right answers have to fit within a complex setting in which sometimes contradictions are complementary two impossible things are true at the same time and within that you’re invited to shape what happens next so those that hopefully while people are having experience or also learning how to recreate the experience and that makes the the work a little harder for me because that’s uh takes more time so everything I do is co-leadership like what well could when we’re planning something I also uh create a or create a Design Group uh that plans which structures are going to be used in what sequence and uh every person on that group is invited to leave them when we’re together in you know doing the work and whatever so that’s that’s the challenge of keeping it going um and really it’s not me it’s so far it’s the structure that holds that flow that uh everyone being able to work at the top of their intelligence structure does not work so if you can help somebody understand that structure it keeps going right it can keep going you are you are taking us with you in this flow you you speak about the process and we can almost if we picture it we can see a movement it is about being on the move so if you think you you told us it’s about taking the time dedicating yourself devoting yourself to it and developing little habits if you could give one advice to us and one piece of inspiration for one such habit what would your advice to us be what little habit could we start so that we liberate ourselves and we liberate ourselves within our team to achieve this collective intelligence what what habit can we start okay I’m gonna do the thing that you did is go go to the hard one or many but the one that’s maybe hardest for me still after these years is um the second that I think I know something that you I want you to know you know you you know you need to know this thing and I’m going to tell you the moment that you have that thought you need to flip that turn it over into a question an invitation to explore everything around why that’s interesting and complex and uh why that’s important and if you can turn that from a telling to an exploring through an invitation to others um whatever is that thing that you think is so important and you are the expert on it the group of people around you will outstrip you if you honestly invite them to come in and talk about that and explore it very quickly they will go beyond what you know and that that’s a rough habit because we we all want to make a contribution you know it’s probably at the core of our being I want to make a contribution and it feels like I need to tell people what that contribution is uh but it doesn’t work it doesn’t it’s not an effective way to get momentum it’s a great challenge as well as you said because it’s taking it out from ourselves our individual selves oh this is a great idea and then going on on the idea which is very easy because it’s exciting it’s our idea and then opening it up to the group oh here’s an idea what do you think about it and then let the let let the group think what do we think about it do we like it yes it’s going down that way so the invitation goes into this exploration or yeah not the right time not now not a thing so this is really it’s very it’s very very challenging to put up something to put something up for a debate right rather than take it for granted well it’s not um uh not a little different than that so it’s not my idea uh so one example would be I’ve been working on the future of work with client and um one example uh rather than uh you know my idea is there should never be an ultimatum that everybody should go back to work next week right yeah it’s just don’t you know I might think that but um more important is to ask a question is about how can we uh be of a completely ignorant policy it’s it’s the same assistant it’s Equitable and simultaneously or while we have autonomous local uh manager and the employee or the low folks decide what flexible work is what that patients are that are needed so to have a fabulous super smart approach to the future of work you need to be the same in every you know you need to be consistent and integrated in every way and different and local and autonomous at the same time so I would rather than the question don’t you think it’s kind of dumb to have an ultimatum I would ask how is it that our policy about coming into the office can be both integrated the same in all situations and autonomous and locally defined so that’s a much harder thing to answer right it requires uh and it doesn’t put an opinion out there that people want to fight with and that’s what a debate a debate is I can probably you know I have a better idea than you so I don’t want to debate now you just use that word you know popped in you’re right and yeah so you said debate and that question I want you to turn it into is when I think about why I you know how can you always and never be the same right how can you be more the same and more more Thomas you know that comes out of a complexity science uh idea that our bodies and all natural systems um have an incredible amount of variability in them they’re both sent so a heart rate is healthy is not one that just goes like this it’s one that has variability we call it you know fractal variability uh and it’s a wave within a wave and so the the question I just asked is the called a wick question and it uh everybody can answer but it’s hard it’s it’s actually there’s a relatively narrow range of ways in which uh you can shape the future of work that isn’t just more the same the edict the you know whatever now and local you have to actually both things are going to create a fabulous uh set of decisions about the future of work so sorry for going off there but that’s that’s the hardest thing to do I think is taught isn’t that you don’t have an opinion but if you’re leading and you want the group to draw out the intelligence of the group then better to ask a question that has that’s hard to answer but has many right answers right I think this concept of the many right answers and you said it again before the many equally valid equal real realities I think this is a great Revelation that complexity Theory brings in and can open up opportunities and windows in places where we see dilemmas like how you said we all go back to the work or we don’t so frequently yes and and for you maybe this is what you want and for you this is what you want so instead of you know debating which one do we do just like you said Okay so how do we do it how do we do our work in this new experience that we are having so it’s I think that you’re giving us an interesting perspective to think about and one that is we don’t usually think oh there are multiple real realities we usually will look for one you know that’s the the linear way yes one one reality but actually know that there are multiple real realities and then it’s not about my opinion or what I think which is also a great insight for leaders and that that makes me wonder how from your experience how do leaders either appointed ones or ones that emerge to a leadership expression how are their experiences with liberating structures and you’ve worked in many contexts so I don’t know if you have some stories across different contexts that perhaps could help accentuate this this relationship between leadership Liberation structure inclusion multiple voices dialogue yeah so I’ll tell two quick stories uh you I love the way you interview it’s just the greatest the second that you start to tilt your head a little and you’re forming a question I’m going oh oh no here it comes uh that this is good um so I’m thinking about a very senior leader at the um I think I can just talk about the World Bank so this is somebody um that have lungs all over the world and they’re big they’re uh 800 people coming together in Washington DC for an event this was many years ago um and the boss completely frustrated with how they’re working together what results they’re able to get is willing to try something else uh but it really become the frustration turns out once we met you know his preferred standard is one of the complexity science that dropped his name you know I’ve been in the same room with his like he was willing but had no experience and then as he experienced it we were together for a whole weekend we have the rooms could have small little conversations and beneficials 500 people in the room and micro you know it was it was completely it was very liberated and then his boss was coming away and changed the room all layers I can see each I had an experience um but when it came to the of the day and the rest of the organization didn’t have that experience so he had to be a leader that was different to make it possible with his group but his peers had not had that now on the and he did it because he’s frustrated with the regular way that they had work together uh another experience is at a little school in Denmark uh called chaos pilots and these are all young people learning I don’t know if you think it was a great little school and they’re into self operation and all these great things yes and so with one of the classrooms two students from the previous cohort were co-leading we were on the design team with one of their faculty and we had a again it was a week worth of emerging liberating structures and we planned an event we start the event and I’m at the front room with design start the structure I think prompt you network of the structure work to move the next students who are there things the young women uh say Keith um we’ve got just stand over you know just quick a little bit and we’ve got it so they understood structure immediate not did they understand it they had it in there so I’m reading and getting us to do a little bit [Music] if you haven’t had years of leadership training or leaders years of facilitation training years of any kind of training that’s popular up to this point you can learn make perfect sense when you can immediately adopt them and the people around you will love it you don’t have to convince anybody those two experiences about it yeah yes no and these were very you know striking examples you take us from the World Bank and all the the images that we can have and then you take us to a school and the students and the energy that they have so it’s it’s very eye-opener to see as well okay so there is a methodology and then you can really be playful with it you can connect it to a different context it doesn’t need to be World Bank only or a self-organized school only so this is very inspirational I would say for wanting to experiment with the liberating structures you also said the word that caught my attention you spoke in the beginning about the frustration that um the leader in the world back wants feeling and so I would like to ask you you know um we are intuitively attracted to liberating structures and this concept of participation and connection and at the same time we need to undo many of the things and over overall habits things that we have been doing for a lot of time things that we have been thinking things that are a part of us and there can be also a moment of frustration or of question what what would your your thoughts be or how would you tell us to keep going during these moments of frustration what would be the hope for us the way out how have you experienced these moments where these these moments of change when you see that yes people are eager to try and at the same time you know they are frustrated or how do I do it how do I break out of myself so how how would you give us some hope to keep going well this is a good question uh counter-intuitively uh one place to start giving hope is to dip into the despair over the way you’re doing things now so when we first were researching the structures we had to look at what are what are the other what are the ones that we use all the time so a presentation like let’s have a meeting where there’s three presentations and uh lovingly but provocatively I’ll ask well how’s that working when you have a meeting with a bunch of presentations how’s that how’s that work does it get everybody you know does it produce the result you want no it’s horrible we we really don’t like it most people are doing something else um well what about the opposite when you open have an open discussion and people get into a debate you know I I actually when we start I’ll make fun of all these things I’ll poke at them so the open position we say that’s a good Rodeo do you know they kick and jump on each other very amusing but nothing productive happens it’s just a chaos so presentations don’t and if you open discussion or you have to say that was great that we talked and you have to pretend that a Direction came out of that which is usually what you were going to do anyway right you have to pretend like that was great and now we have a pla A Way Forward no it’s the way that you so I the first thing to create hope is to emphasize what is not despair you have to work with a little bit of the despair and then um have an experience where that is not present at all you don’t have to do a presentation you don’t have to do an open discussion you actually don’t have to do brainstorming or report outs or a whole bunch of the conventional things you never have to use them again and so the only way I found to create hope is to repeatedly get that result where the whole group is working at the top of their intelligence where there’s real creativity every voice is heard and it’s like that’s where all the Hope comes from um and then if you can imagine an organization in the future in which we’re using those all the time which is pretty easy to help paint that picture of it and um the last thing is the whole repertoire one thing these people hope is the 33 different methods give you something to hang your hand or hang on to you know um for us anything would come up in the organization um your community or their stuff or personal things so there’s enough there there’s hope and there’s something in this room before that would help me those are the kinds of things that I the hardest One Is to learn how to provoke it dip the despair enough that you remind people that they shouldn’t go backwards do you know what I mean by that it’s it’s hard to do I’d rather not emphasize the hopelessness yes but it’s there it’s there I think it’s very hopeful what you’re saying because you know let’s talk let’s see what’s on your mind what what is bringing you this prayer it’s something that we often hesitate to do but at the same time we we all have the same anxieties so if we don’t serve them we assume that others expect something else from us or that they are in a better place actually they are not so let’s talk about I think that’s a very hopeful but also very practical advice yes let’s talk about it we are going through the process and we are in this together let’s talk about it and see what comes out thank you for that Keith and I would like to to bring a question from our audience into our discussion thank you Gabby for the question so Gabby would like her company to to become interested in liberating structures and her question is what’s a great way to convince their manager what what would your thoughts be what would be a good way to experiment or to to suggest experimenting with liberating structures yeah yeah so uh Gabby I’d recommend exactly what I just said so with your manager first don’t use the words liberating structures don’t mention it just say uh to the manager uh you know what you think of our you think many meetings have been productive do you think the work we’re doing on the big issue is generating enough momentum and then the answer is honest and like well not really or or you may actually have to say you know well I don’t did you notice we’re getting anywhere or you know just make it cleared the try to find a place in which your manager is willing to try anything and then you say I’m I want to lead the first experience trying something different and you don’t say if you say liberating structures it probably won’t even go anywhere so just say I want to try something different I need this much time we’re going to use just one uh one uh out of a repertoire of methods that may be helpful to us do the experiment do the work see what people think if they like it you’ll be invited to do a lot more like an endless amount more that’s my recommendation I hope that’s helpful so starting with something simple perhaps also easy to implement um both in terms of resources and time and then grow from there yeah like the one two four all no Chris I know you you like one two four also it takes 15 minutes 12 minutes so Gabby if you say I’m out of this next meeting I want 15 minutes and um that’s all I want and we’re gonna generate some suggestions and ideas for action and uh yeah and that’s already really this practical orientation that you always have that you say okay you can start you need 15 minutes from your meeting in those 15 minutes we are going to use for this so it’s it’s already building this habit without making you know extravagant statements or talking about it it’s just really let’s do it let’s let’s let’s build a new habit within our team I I I love this practical orientation because it helps us Focus very much on how can we do it how can it happen and you know the way that we have been discussing and talking about your journey you said in the beginning oh it’s taken me 10 years to write the book so the book was written and then there were there were more years adding to the history to the journey so if you go back to the book to the chapters is there any chapter that you would add any more examples what would a new edition of the book look like how would you go about it at this point okay another good question uh thinking about another book or Not Another revision so uh thing needs to be made practically explicit about online to everything in the book was described as face to face in the room and the entire repertoire has been converted to online and it’s not written down so that’s a that’s maybe a whole book or a new at least a chapter uh the second thing that we did not address in the first book it’s mostly focused on I’ll say business organizations but what I mean is uh and organizations not communities or yes so uh since we published the things that surprised me is almost every one of the structures can be applied to you as a you’re a complex system and you can use it it can be shifted a bit and you can use it to explore yourself the complexity of yourself they can be used in community settings where there’s no power you know no explicit yeah so uh that would be an important uh I think these might be separate books almost but it only could be a chapter and then uh since we published there’s a wiper range of what a group can be this is the goal is everybody can think together they can also support each other as a group like around challenges that are bigger and harder so for example uh the new liberating structures that people are working on one is called grief walking yes it’s all about kind of can you tap uh can you can a group help you make a transition uh around the loss and it can be some of the biggest losses and people’s lives so we’ve been experimenting a simple structure for handling for individuals within the context of a group uh another one is on strategy called strategy not working where you know strategy is very control oriented it usually happens in a few people and to include a bunch of others so the the other chapter would be uh new topics new new topics and liberating structures to address the things that we did not imagine could be addressed in a with a group of people when we published the book so that’s a long answer but those are the things no that’s a that’s a great answer and actually we are we are now at these stage with the experience of of the pandemic to speak and consider topics that would otherwise be under the carpet or at the back of our mind and suddenly they come to the Forefront and that’s that’s where I would like to take you now because you spoke about you know this online context and the virtual the virtual world the virtual ways of connecting with each other and this is something that really picked up during the pandemic for obvious reasons and it’s something that this is a consideration something that we are all thinking about and it was the The Dilemma or do we go back do we remain the same so it’s it’s a topic it’s a hot topic on the table so what I I would like to ask you what is your experience with an online ecosystem and the way that relationships develop at the online world of work and what is more of the same what is the similar Focus that we keep in mind so yes the the the ask is still to connect with each other but we don’t have the physical proximity we cannot touch you um go have a spontaneous coffee with you see your door open in your office and come by how do we engage for this spontaneous moment of relationality during an online ecosystem what what you your experience tell us about that yeah yeah um so one of the liberating structures is called Troika Consulting I’m not sure you’ve used it but yeah it’s wonderful and the one magical element is I would ask for help and do and someone else would be my consultant uh ask for help you ask a couple clarifying questions and then uh I can’t do it because of the platform we’re on but I would turn off my video and my sound and uh if you’re face to face the I literally uh you know turn my back and I’m listening but I’m invited not to respond and as a result of that physical arrangement the Consultants are the two people helping are free to help at a much more imaginative level right yes they go places they’re quite interesting and they can’t read my face and my face would say oh I’d go like this or that and that would indicate that they I tried that and they can’t go there right but I actually want them to go everywhere and um once you’ve done that and you turn back around you realize that those two people more than anyone else in your career had your back they were there for you like when you’re in the room a very similar thing happens if you turn off your video and those two people take on your challenge for just a few minutes and do everything in their imagination help you it’s very similar what happens so uh people just like to say you can’t replace you know I it’s different but it’s the result which is my colleagues have my back and being that some of the weight of the world it was just lifted up by others who care about me that’s possible online and it’s easy you just turn off your thing so even uh grief walking where you’re talking about a loss you know my mentor died during the pandemic not mine but some I’m giving you an example of somebody who did the grief walking um a lot of people cried uh a lot of again there there’s one element of that where if you’re walking with the person who’s grieving you turn all videos are off and then you come on and be with the person and they can see you because you’re walking with them through their transition with their grief and then so this woman told the story and then there were 120 people who instantly simultaneously turned on their videos well she felt the love of the entire group and that was the only love she was going to get because we were in the middle of a pandemic and it was very similar to doing it in person you know in person it’s it’s so uh there’s much more possible if you’re willing to use the technology as it’s available I’m not suggesting that being in the room isn’t great you know uh and makes a difference I’m just saying that we aren’t using for the most part we’re not using the technology to build trusting relationships uh and I’m not talking that’s about a trusting relationship I’m talking about an emotional experience of my colleagues have my back that they’re they’re taking some of the weight off me that’s more than trust that’s uh that’s a real that’s a relationship uh so yeah that’s been my experience is uh more is possible than what we’re using hmm I think what I find very intriguing is this responsiveness that you keep bringing up that you said yes okay it’s the virtual so how do we respond to that how do we build relationships because relationships essentially sign through it’s about the the quality of the relationship and this quality finds an expression in the physical also in the virtual so let’s respond to that and then also you said you know there are difficult topics so we bring in a liberating structure to speak about them as well so one one aspect that I I really appreciate I find very intriguing is this responsiveness which turns our attention outside ourselves Outsider or our immediate concerns and then we can we can carry our colleagues forward and I think that’s very powerful and I think it’s something that that comes
(50:38) across as you speak about liberating structures as you speak about where where you’re going with liberating structures and as as we we’ve been through our conversation here in our living room I think I would like to ask you what what speaks to you what responds to you what are some next steps or some next dreams you you have experienced this this conversion to Virtual the difficult topics that come in the ngos what else or what next what speaks to Keith yeah yeah yeah uh well I have to admit right now I’m turning I’m unclear about next steps uh I’m doing the three things that everyone and uh everyone well in academic life you have to do it I’m not an academic but I’m doing research uh I have a practice I have a Consulting practice um and I do a lot of teaching coaching and I like doing all of those things uh so my next steps are always the next research project uh the next concern uh the next coaching learning opportunity and to the degree that I can do something where all of those are happening at the same time right uh that’s the best kind of thing and um I’m always looking for that partner Consulting a Consulting client that also wants to do research um and that’s really how we started uh you know that’s doing research and they want to learn enough so uh there’s also I don’t know if you know you probably don’t know this um there’s no formal organization it’s a very uh Henry and I we wrote the book we decided we didn’t really want a building or a uh you know an Institute or a foundation or any of those things so there’s often people want like an office or a newsletter or you know things that you’re able to easily produce from a central uh kind of controlling or coordinating body and the the most that we do are things like slack and uh you know where we talk to each other and find each other and help each other uh so there’s increasing pressure because the work is translated and has been translated in languages and many languages and uh to have some sort of coordination coordination or organization and um uh so there’s that might be part of what I’m doing next although I don’t want it’s the thing that needs to be done a little but I don’t really want to do it but I see the need for it so that’s why I’m a little bit not sure what the good answer is I understand what you mean about you know the need appearing and then you’re needing to respond to it I also very much appreciate the dedication that you saw and the passion about you know the research and the teaching and the Practical work and I think that they’re all fitting into each other so I I think it’s a great place to be to do the research and then seeing the insights and then applying them and then teaching and getting new questions responding to those questions so it’s it’s a good place a good cycle a good energy to be at and I I think it’s really amazing and we have experienced it many times I I I am I am one of the blessed to have the conversations with you and now like the time in our in our living room comes to an end so I very much you see it was fast as as predicted yeah I would like to thank you very much for the inspiration that you brought the the little challenges that you put across us about you know it’s multiple realities why are you looking for a debate why only one and it’s about a responding yes it’s virtual yes the physical is still very strong and what does it mean you know another reality the virtual can also be uh equally strong and you you keep giving us practical hints you know start do a habit 15 minutes get started then you will see how it goes so you you leave us with many Reflections so in a way you you stay with us in our living room we’d like to thank you very much to follow your work we can follow the the website and then we can also follow your articles for constant uh little snapshots of inspiration and Keith it has been wonderful to have you with us thank you for your time and the insights that you shared with us so generously thank you you’re welcome and uh yeah someday I’d like to be in a physical living room to talk with you share share some time together so lovely to meet you uh have this conversation and uh appreciate it very much thank you Keith it’s the same for me and I’m sure that we could have the discussion going on and on and on so it’s it’s just a temporary full stop for now and we keep the discussion going also with our audience and also with um new conversations coming up and a very very interesting Gathering and a bundle of conversations happening next week we still around the world so make sure to tune in make sure to explore to engage in discussions and then the next living room conversation comes on the 8th of March with Nicola so stay tuned stay curious full of questions keep thank you very much we we take in The Liberation the participation the challenges thank you for being here with us and thank you to our audience as well for being here with us thank you for your questions for sharing we look forward to the next time in the next conversation until then thank you and have a nice time [Music]