Our couch will be flanked by two rebels after our own hearts. Pim de Morree of the Corporate Rebels and Timm Urschinger, our very own rebel from LIVEsciences AG will be on our hot seat. In this episode, hosted by Rhea OngYiu, we will be doing lightning rounds, fast-talks and bouncing off energy about making work more fun…while catalyzing success in your organizations and the world!
Living Room Conversations: LIVEsciences AG x Corporate Rebels
hello everyone good morning good afternoon good evening to wherever you’re tuning in to our living room conversations today uh my name is Ray on you and I will be hosting uh this uh living room conversations with two of my favorite people in the world some of them so just a disclaimer because there’s many um and uh yeah I I I’m really really excited about this conversation um because I think this is so in line with what we believe in at Life Sciences we’re really looking at how can we create that transform transformative change not only in organizations individuals but also in society as a whole and this afternoon we have two people who will be who are actually founders of organizations that are really pushing the needle for change in workplaces all over the world and um yeah so I let me um not hold you back and and just introduce both of them so my first guest is uh Pim de Marie from corporate Rebels and uh Kim is this in the Netherlands and they have been on a mission to make work more fun and um in organization so Pam why don’t you join me in the living room today hi Ria very happy to be here thanks for having me welcome welcome and um yeah and then our second guess is uh also needs no further introduction you’ve seen him uh coming uh and hosting conversations in this uh podcast as well uh he is a CEO and co-founder of uh um life sciences and also one of the um founders of teal around the world so Tim would you like to join me and sure thank you Ria and it’s actually nice to be on the other side this time kind of as a guest and not as a host so it’s really nice yeah exactly so Pam and Tim thank you so much for joining me this afternoon um it’s it’s really great that we can have this conversation I just want to have a little bit of warm up but before I do that I just want to invite people who are on um LinkedIn or tune in to YouTube and Facebook uh or I think we’re also in Twitter so if you are there you can engage in this conversation so don’t feel left out you can ask questions shoot it in I’ll make sure that I I asked both guys your questions and we get it answered throughout this uh session so um I prepared a few questions for you and um I want to do a little bit of warm-up so and it’s it’s going to be a very quick one so I just need to see your answers and some of these things and it’s really random okay so uh all right um texting or talking. I’ll go for talking I’ll probably go for texting because most of the day I’m in meetings so I can’t talk to another bunch of people really really cool um sunrise or sunset I’ll go for Sunrise because I got a nice view towards the east here so I actually don’t see the sunset even uh I definitely go for a sunset with a nice beer on the beach maybe we are actually not not that similar to him like like we thought in the beginning this is going to be a terrible conversation yeah it is this is uh this is really cool now I have a random question what was the last song you listened to like poop I think it was Michael Patrick Kelly at diamonds and medals I can recommend them a good song never heard of it let me check my uh Spotify real quickly uh Notorious B.I.G juicy oh I’m listening to a lot of 90s uh hip-hop and uh r b I can relate to that all right this is a random question but I mean curious at what age do you want to retire I don’t I don’t I don’t get the concept of retirement well it depends on how you define retirement I guess uh if it means no not not working anymore then I would say you could argue I’m retired already because it’s more fun than work or you could say I never retired similar to you pimp depends on the concept you have for retirement I guess very nice to see some interesting commonalities there now um okay one last question on this lightning round if you can have one superpower what would it be hmm I would love to uh so learning languages more quickly superpower like instantly I would be able to do that that’s that’s actually a nice idea I thought I thought first about language as well but more language of nature you know trying to understand what what uh animals and trees and whatever but I don’t think if they think that I would be cool anyway like Dr Doolittle yeah I kind of just just uh just probably hopefully a bit more serious than that so we have a linguist and we have a Doctor Doolittle and uh if I can have one superpower it would be teleporting I’d love to be able to go places and not travel nice one too yeah yeah so um uh you know like both of you are known in the field that we work in as I’m sorry as um as Rebels and uh family called your company travels and um and uh Tim also you’re known as a rebel who doesn’t like um you know the BS so tell me what does rebel mean to you it’s a proper living room conversation like this with the dog exactly um yeah so what it means to what it means to um to me the interesting though so even though we uh called the a company or or in 2016 when we started corporate Rebels it wasn’t really a company but we called the project corporate Rebels not so much because we wanted to call ourselves corporate Rebels but because we wanted to visit corporate Rebels all around the world so he made this list of pioneers that we wanted to visit and we put it up on a website and said okay these are the rebels that we definitely want to learn from over time we turned into the corporate Rebels um so yeah it went a bit from from these Pioneers to over to us um but I feel really strongly connected to to the words as well because I think it’s um vitally important for for organizations to have more Rebels for more people to stand up to traditional workplace practices and all the frustration and uh burnout and um lack of passion that they that they force on to people so I think that for me it’s really important that more people kind of say no to what’s happening in most companies and are aware that things can be done in a very different more human way um so um I really truly believe that we need more Rebels that that stand up to this and if we all come together and and start making small changes to how we work we can have a big impact not just on workplaces but in on humanity and people in general I think nice I think so my rabbit’s definition couldn’t be it couldn’t be much better I think I was always um I guess questioning the status quo is part of the Rebel being in a way all right so this is this is something that’s been important for me as well I mean I never really figured why School needs to look like it looked like when I was there anyway so and I didn’t necessarily enjoy it which means I was a pain in in the behind for some of the teachers I guess but you know it’s part of part of that as well and then and I guess 20 Stanley continued over the corporate life of course being part of a big Pharma then of a more traditional consultancy which is also I guess similar to to your stories is uh one of the reasons we left this environment and created our own little thing and just doing some things differently as well um and yeah then just trying to to yeah probably change some of the narratives that that are still there yeah there’s definitely a richness in um what I’m hearing from both of you um less this drive um to also change that narrative but also to role model um that changed right so I think uh and Tim I’m very curious like with with um kind of like almost a past pass on button back to you coming from the the organizations that you visit that inspire you uh to role model right it’s a that’s really really nice to hear um I’m curious because I know I have read the book and um also Tim I’ve been with life sciences for a while I know a little bit the backstory but many of our viewers viewers um probably have not read a book of corporate Rebels and don’t know the backstory of the founding of the organizations I’m curious if you can share a little bit of that as well and Tim I’ll come to you with the same question yeah yeah for sure um yeah so the background is that it really started from a point of frustration I think it was a really important fuel for us to start uh corporate rebels in it started in in 2016. so Yost and myself we founded the company uh back then um it was really from both our experiences really turning this frustration into something more positive so our background so I studied industrial engineering and started to work for a company where I could do exactly the thing that I had studied for same to yoast um but he studied nanotechnology and he started to work for Henkel big German company and worked in this laboratory doing all this nerdy stuff and he loved the content of the work and same as I did but we both hated the way work was organized so the fact that there was a manager telling you what to do um the the the insane amount of bureaucracy you had to fight with every day the the burden of being meetings all day not getting any work done the lack of freedom to make your own decisions and really bring something from yourself into the workplace that was just not possible and we became so frustrated and we have been friends since we were 12 years old always stayed um connected since we met in school and we share the frustration and back then I think we were 29 years old and we said to each other well we are complaining already so much about our work we shouldn’t continue complaining for 40 years and then retiring and then hopefully having a bit more fun in life that sounds like a horrible way to spend your time on this planet so we said okay let’s do something about it let’s quit our jobs to get rid of the frustration but let’s also find a way to make work more fun and that was really the goal and the purpose of starting corporate Rebels we had no understanding whatsoever of new ways of working because we had been trained in totally different fields so we simply said let’s learn from the Pioneers out there let’s visit them understand how they work and let’s see if we can share some of these insights and ideas with more people around the world so we can hopefully contribute a little bit to this growing movement of people that are wanting to do things differently so that started in 2016 we now visited more than 150 of these pioneering organizations we continue to do that and we continue to research them and share everything that we learned through our blog through books and through our Online Academy where we bring people together who are trying to transform organizations from the inside out or if they’re Consultants from the outside in and then hopefully contributing with what we do to Global workplace Revolution because it’s it’s strongly needed there’s so many people that feel the same as we did a couple of years ago and it’s a shame because these people are not leveraging their talents they’re not fully passionate about what they do they are not contribute contributing to something that they truly believe in that is Meaningful to them and their and their communities so we’re wasting a lot of talent and potential and I think that’s a that’s a shame and we should do something about it so we try to make a contribution with corporate Rebels to doing it that’s a that’s a really beautiful story of turning frustrations not just the talk about it but also really bringing some action and courage to hopefully change that narrative so Pam thank you so much for the work that you’re doing we’re grateful for it and we’re inspired by it all the time and uh yeah I move over to Tim if you can share also a little bit of light on how you and Frank uh far about life sciences yeah yeah so I I guess uh it goes back to 2011 so Frank and I were both working at a at another consultancy mid-sized out of Switzerland you know typical Global strategy Global rollout type of stories um and I was I was relatively new there so Frank was my boss at that time and uh in 2011 for one of the typically you know year-end uh kind of uh employee manager kind of chats he asked me what would need to happen that I leave the company so and the thing I said is well if it’s not fun anymore I leave so I guess this is the overlap and and the the the link to also uh corporate rabbit’s purpose making work more fun uh resonates a lot with me now anyway it took a few more years um uh until the end of 2015 until Frank and I were frustrated enough with the rest of the management team at that company and we had different ideas and you know we actually just didn’t want to run a business and collaborate in that way so we quit there in 2015 and actually had no idea how we would like to set up our own company also together with Stefan then right from the beginning um and with the three of us we anyway didn’t need really a structure but what happened is I read the book Reinventing organizations in 2015 summertime some something uh from Frederick Lalu and it was anywhere between naive and exciting knowing the world of big Pharma and consultants in a more traditional way I guess but I was good enough to try it out and um similarly we tried to find people who are doing something in a place in german-speaking region 2015 you know was a lot of philosophy hype at that time there was you know some companies trying and experimenting things so um and we were we were thinking the steel idea was actually a nice way of collaborating big all three of us liked autonomy and freedom we all didn’t really like the admin repetitive bureaucratic stuff so you know it sounded quite good um and then we just got going on change management transforming and you know typical consultancy stuff but I think what was really interesting then is also to find out once we got more into this community into that field that there’s actually other people who know a lot about these topics and um I so I personally I think came the first time across corporate Rebels and and your work uh premieres around um end of 2016 I think the first article I’ve read on your blog post was the one around Morningstar with the no bosses no titles no hierarchical structures or what whatever was called so that was a really good one that was my starting point I was like oh that’s actually a good really good content there it was searching around and found all sorts of good articles also back in that time I think 2016 you already have had quite some of these online actually and since then the last you know seven years or so and probably forwarded like a million corporate represents links to all sorts of blog posts so there was the to all sorts of people who might or might not be interested but but I think it’s good and you know there’s people out there who do research and meet these people and bring it together and also create these patterns out of it um without being too prescriptive so you know when we think about doing the work with companies then then as usually you don’t use a blueprint don’t copy paste something and this is I think also something that we have a really similar philosophy about and obviously uh really similarly to to what you said I I also is saying you know there’s only one finite thing in life and that’s your lifetime and if you waste it with a frustrating job Monday through Friday that’s I mean first of all it’s completely stupid I think and then actually it’s also pretty set and that’s not even talking about the loss you have from an organizational perspective on potential of people and ideas and all these kind of things so yeah I guess uh Seven Years Journey as well for us we started first of April 2016. little hint don’t put it on LinkedIn on the 1st of April because you’ll get 50 April Fool’s messages kind of strong but um maybe second of April but otherwise it was a good journey for the last seven years I would say yeah really cool and uh yeah so and there’s so many people that think along the same lines as as we do which is a good thing um I really always love to see it that there’s so many people wherever we go and talk about this topic so many people who are passionate about doing the same thing that I think we’re slowly but surely really getting to a Tipping Point that people um or that we all need to really start changing things on a big skill and and I mean this is I think where we’re both passionate about as well with the corporate Rebels community and the academy with children around the world as well I mean it’s one thing that you’re the crazy odd one out in a bigger organization where nobody thinks like you but then you figure out well there’s actually some of these who are also you know odd crazy Rebels whatever you want to call it and in connecting these people is incredibly powerful so it’s actually not just that odd born out but there’s there’s actually a bunch of people in all I would say almost any organization on Earth right now who thinks about these things and tries to rethink work and bringing these people together I think is is really a similar mission in a way no we don’t hear you right now Ria I don’t know that’s it I was muted by the boring dog but uh yeah thank you for sharing the richness of the history and um I think I would even add like the heart behind um all the work that you do it’s it’s based on a frustration that turned into a love for creating something beautiful out of it so thank you so much for for for doing the work that both of you have done and have started and I have been at the receiving end of that and I think many people as well are and um yeah so there’s such a richness and there’s also a lot of thought and I think sparking ideas behind the scenes right to get somewhere and uh February said like there’s many Rebels out there and uh and femi also said like it’s probably we’re reaching a Tipping Point where we meet all we all need have to meet so that we can find um uh a path for scaling this uh this impact and um I think that’s that’s very inspiring and if I may um there is one there is one important warning to that though uh that I feel the Tipping Point is coming because I’m always quite optimistic so when we started corporate Rebel seven years ago I thought that all organizations would be working this progressively in 10 15 years time well I was definitely a bit naive back then still am probably but uh I do think we’re getting closer yeah but I think that I think the optimism is great right being trudged on with a mission yeah and it’s good to not always see all the barriers that you will run into yeah actually you triggered me to ask a an important question about outcomes uh you said like you thought that it will be different in 10 years down the road from when you started um now you’re in the middle of that journey and um I’m curious what is if there is an outcome that you would like to see coming out of the work both of you that both of you are doing what would you like to see happen in organizations but also in humans that get to work that you get to work with yeah want to go first too yeah uh I I can try I mean I I thought about what what might be a good answer to that one I think um I mean first of all I’m I’m also an optimist right I mean we we had some crazy Vision discussions back then in 2015 as well with uh Frank around you know uh the a certain big company goes till by 2023 I think so we got we got like what nine months to go to realize the vision and I think we haven’t not yet that close actually so but you know this is this is the this is the kind of uh stuff that keeps us going as well and I think it comes down to um again I think there’s there’s different themes that are playing into that making work more fun and more meaningful it means first of all there’s a theme and a pattern where if we don’t do that jet GPT will make us all uh kind of uh unemployed pretty soon as well so you know either you find something where being human makes sense and then you should also create a workplace that is actually being human because otherwise what’s the point right you could also work with machines then um and and so this is one theme I think and the other that we see is around sustainability around if you look at what Frederick is doing now with the week around our climate change challenges that we have and and all the societal challenges that we have I think there’s just um more than this typical profit bottom line kind of view that we need to have triple bottom line whatever kind of stories so I think whatever contributes in that direction and I think both of us we’re not necessarily missionary in a sense it needs to be teal it needs to be holocracy it needs to be whatever this or that and and any any of these kind of ideas and models and Pioneers who are going steps are actually contributing to that future and I think that’s that’s the important thing really I’m not even sure if I answered your question where but I think that’s that’s the thoughts that come up for me yeah it’s a it’s a great thank you um I think it’s uh it’s also open for how it could play out right so that’s uh that’s really great but thanks uh Tim and uh fem over to you what are your thoughts well I think that we so we won’t be changing all organizations and I think that’s also a good thing um that’s something that I definitely learned over the years I think it would it would be really cool though because now 99.99 of the companies are organized traditionally um and I’m I’m I think that it would be good to have some uh percentage of companies being organized traditionally some people love to work in that environment they feel comfortable there um it’s it’s how they want to approach work that’s perfectly fine but we’re seeing that so many people are um much more enthusiastic and passionate about a alternative way of working that there should be a better balance between the the two so moving from 99.9 of businesses being organized traditionally if we could bring that to 20 30 percent um and the other uh 70 80 percent create a wide diversity of other types of organizations I think that would be an ideal situation where we can really show the diversity of people and that people can also select an organization to work for that matches their values in how they work not just what they do but also how they work because nowadays people are looking for a job that fits with what they studied for or what they’ve done previously in their career they tried to go from one job description to the next but they don’t really look at what kind of organization do I want to be a part of what sort of community do I want to enter and what kind of relationships do I want to have with the people at work and this I think is a something that we definitely need to change that people are much more aware when they make a decision on where they want to work and what kind of job they want to do is that they also Focus very strongly on what kind of work environment do I want to be in how do I want to relate to the people that I meet every day whether it be online or in an office at work and once we can get that diversity going I think a lot more organizations will be flourishing because people can really connect to the type of organization they’re a part of Ray I think you you got your parking mute again we’re sharing this I think it’s a it’s quite um it’s ambitious and sometimes can feel daunting to to drop from 90 to 20 right of uh the traditional approaches yeah we have a long way to go here definitely and um it is it means there’s also um let’s say a common Consciousness that needs to be created amongst people who already believe it and also can move that needle forward right so this that’s a really good invitation for for many or hearing this it’s also what think about what is a courageous step that you want to take in your role in your organization or in this lifetime in the society and communities that you are part of what could be uh that game changer for you yeah so I I want to leave that question for people who are hearing this yeah and um yeah I I see some questions coming in from from the audience so let me just uh ring uh something from Tina Tina is asking Pim Tim admiring your work could you share some stunning organizational Transformations you have seen um yeah there are quite quite quite a lot uh but one that still um inspires me most I think is um a group of companies in Spain it’s called Nair group um you might some people might have heard of them if not please look them up on our blog we have a lot of stories written about how they work and to me still this is one of the most powerful transformation stories of organizations around the world because they have this quite tangible um transformation process so there’s this group of people in Bilbao and now spread out through Spain and other parts of the world that are supporting companies to change and they have a very radical transformation process so to give you just a couple of the highlights of that uh first they wanted the CEO to be on really on board of a radical transformation so they asked the CEO to sign a letter that if he or she gets in the way of the transformation that the um Consultants can put him or her out of that position because they simply block the transformation so they really want commitment because their CEO signs his or her letter stating that they can be put out of their position so Tara you definitely have some commitment secondly they shut down operations for two days for everyone in the business to go out and see Progressive organizations and experience it ask all of their questions to get a really good sense of what this new way of working is like and then after two days they have a general assembly and they let everyone vote are you in favor of this transformation or are you against this transformation and then if they get less than 80 percent of the people saying yes we want to do this they don’t do it so they really want commitment from more than 80 percent of the employees as well to go down this radical transformation Journey if they get a yes vote from the vast majority of people then they um they dismantle the hierarchy form into self-managing Team Network and they create radical transparency around their company financials their performance also salary levels they reduce the gaps in salary level to be a maximum of two and a half times between the highest and the lowest earner so there’s some really radical things that they do time and time again and it’s not just when they realize it it’s not just more fun for employees it’s also more successful for the organization so if you look at their bottom line their profitability and their productivity um they just perform much better than they did before the transformation so to me this is a really good example of time and time again showing that this transformation can lead to good success both in terms of the human side but also in terms of the business side so this is also something we’re working on at the moment with a new Venture it’s called krizos um together with a couple of people who have done a lot of these transformations but taking it to the next level because I also saw one of the other questions that popped up like how do you deal with top managers or what are some of the main barriers to change I think ownership of a company is a big barrier to change or sometimes owners or external shareholders are not interested in doing all these fancy exotic things in the organization they just want to do things in a traditional way so it gets in the way of many of these Transformations so that’s why we’ve decided to set up quizles which is a private Equity Firm um social version of it but we try to buy small and medium-sized businesses and then transform them into highly Progressive Way of working and then once transformed we sell it to the employees so it cannot be changed back into a traditional way of working because otherwise all the hard work is done for nothing so that’s how we try to now also show that from an investment perspective but also from a human perspective and from an organizational perspective this is beneficial and if we can do that we can then start doing it in other places around the world to really help to create new types of organizations but also make the economy a little bit better with more distributed ownership of organizations really nice I think um first of all uh Dean I’m sure is aware of of your block as well and has looked up some of the stories uh because I know that she’s she’s really the keen on these topics always um I’d say for me it’s a bit similar to to what you said in mind there is there’s this limitation of of usually more traditionally run organizations big organizations uh they’re listed at the stock exchange which which whatever they have quarterly results you have yearly results and you know the stock stock market value is really important to these companies usually usually have external shareholders it’s not all hold by and one owner or family or something like that so I think and and this is this is something that I always find incredibly interesting because if you look at also you know the blog posts that you’re doing at Frederick’s book and so on uh oftentimes we talk about these self-organizing companies who actually started their way like us like Morningstar like like fields of like you know all of these and scaling it to like 15 000 people in the Netherlands is super impressive don’t don’t get me wrong but they never had the transformation in that sense right and I think it’s a completely different element and so what I actually find I just find quite stunning if we talk about these Transformations is Stock Exchange listed companies not owned by one person or one family and are still making really really good progress and you know we have some really good examples here in Basel actually um or generally the big Pharma World quite quite surprisingly there’s a lot going on in some of the big Banks there’s interesting things going on and it’s surprising some of these little places where we would probably say well you know typical Silo type of organization there’s a kingdom Pim got his Little Kingdom Business unit had whatever location aside something like that but actually these are sometimes the most Progressive places because king or queen of that little kingdom uh can actually do a lot in this big setup because you actually got a lot of autonomy in these kind of setups so um a lot of these decentral Transformations have have created incredibly crazy places as part of a big Corporation so I do know holocracy setups of a thousand people like proper holocracy uh in a hundred thousand people companies and this is this is quite crazy this is this is a stunning transformation that actually has happened in that place and you know and Leadership upside down it made people leave obviously who are not comfortable with that kind of way of working especially the executives um and and still they went through the change and and also smaller places you know there’s a one of the great examples that I always find is is also one of the deal around the world because Darren who’s running um a Pharma company in in Slovakia being part of a big Corporation and he’s made it basically a teal setup with all the limitations of a big cooperation right you can’t get rid of an org chart of a traditional one okay fine but you you can do almost anything else so I think this is this is really interesting Transformations how do you get you know the environment around you on board which is which is probably run in a more traditional way again Stock Exchange Executives you know big corporations in the sense of the corporate functions especially interesting enough HR Finance are usually one of the bigger blockers for these Transformations so it’s just interesting and so I find these Transformations incredibly interesting although it’s usually not that mainstream you know you have a 50 80 people or maybe a thousand people in a big Corporation and nobody really knows unless you talk to them so this is this is quite stunning transformation work with me actually would be really cool for also for our site to learn more about that because we uh like we have visited some some companies where the one department or one business unit has done things differently but I think we need to have more of these stories because this really helps people to understand that you don’t need the approval of a CEO to go down a transformation Journey because a lot of people are stuck there they read about Progressive businesses and then they say well it’s really nice that it works over there but the CEO was involved or the top initiated it so but what we don’t have that so let’s not even try anything to make some progress which I think is a shame so more of these stories would really help so happy to uh to chat more afterwards to learn more about those definitely and I mean these These are the typical Rebels so when we start the conversation right what’s what’s the rebel I mean if you’re the head of a business unit you’re part of a traditional executive team and you you know make a huge change to the way of working for your business unit this is this is actually you know you’re putting your job at risk to a large extent and and still these people do it so I think this is the this is the definition of a proper rebel I would say in a big Corporation we had once we visited once the Belgium Ministry of Social Security and the head of that department they also said to us well at first when we wanted to make this change we didn’t say to the minister because they would definitely have killed this project because the politicians are the most risk-averse people you can find so we we’re not going to talk to them about self-management and reducing the hierarchy giving people freedom and he said yeah for two years we just went completely under the radar and we got rid of our traditional structures but we didn’t tell to anybody else and then after they got the results they said okay now we can be more open about it because first of all we cannot go back to traditional way of working and secondly we now have the results to show for it so people were probably also not want us to go back to that traditional way and and I mean this this is a strategy that I would also see working in all sorts of organizations don’t don’t call it agile don’t call it teal don’t call it self-managing teams whatever transformation Journey just say that you want to work on your ways of working in a different way of calibrating and you’ll probably get green light from almost anyone because even the most traditional conservative Executives figure out that you know way of working is important and then you just do something right don’t don’t don’t call it out necessarily I think it’s a good strategy sometimes yeah good one and even if you go a level let’s say lower in the organization on the team team level you can do so many things I think people are really underestimating that but if you would in one team you get a couple of people enthusiastic about changing how you work and you redefine the way you run meetings how you distribute responsibilities and roles in the team how you give each other feedback how you make decisions these small tweaks you can make they’re not so easy but you can make it in a couple months time and then you have such a big impact on the engagement and motivation of people people who are really underestimating that and you can have really big impacts there if you just make some some of these small tweaks work yeah well that that’s uh that’s that’s really cool um I I see the parallels and and the work that you’re both doing right and um you have a focus on like a little bit on the academy side and we have focus a little bit on um really working in the trenches of the organizations and being able to to create somehow the same outcome so my question to you is um uh how do you see that um because now we are we’re in the face of like okay how can we collaborate together uh as both life sciences and as both corporate Rebels and really it is an honor to kind of share that with the world and the people who all are also in our kind of a network that we are committing um to to actually move this uh forward together in in a form of a partnership to collaborate more closely and to make work more fun well making it successful as well uh in the individuals organizations that we work with um so my question to both of you what do you dream to achieve um out of this partnership let’s see well from from our side um I think it what really makes this partnership um powerful is that we both have strengths in different areas so where we as corporate Rebels Focus very strongly on doing research and sharing that in an understandable way um to as many people as possible um you we’re we are not so strong in actually supporting companies to implement these changes it’s not what we focus on it’s not what we like to do um so we don’t spend our time focusing on that and I think that’s a perfect fit with what you guys love to do so really helping companies to implement these changes and going from the ideas of new ways of working into practice so I think it really connects nicely there where we focus on doing the research sharing that um showing what’s happening around the world to inspire people to give them ideas and insights and that you then support them to make it come to life inside their organizations so yeah I think that’s that’s really powerful especially if you bring that together on our uh Academy platform where we have change makers from all around the world who are interested in making a change and learning from pioneers and also then putting it into practice inside their organizations with uh potentially the help from you guys to to really make it come to life I think that’s that’s a great great idea for for helping more companies around the world to significantly make a change and and if I can add to that maybe so there’s there’s two things which which are which are really exciting for me about that one um what’s the mindset you need to get started on that right and this is this is something we talk about for I don’t know how many years now with growth mindset as a headline but it’s really that abundance and scarcity type of mindset you could also say well we’re actually just competition and we’re actually about the same things um so why why would we even Explore or talk talk to each other and I think it’s the same hotel around the world there’s so many of us involved there we would say well it’s just competition and I think you know proving that actually bringing these together in you know we have similar purposes we have a similar idea of the impact that we want to bring to the world and we have our individual strengths our unique Brilliance in a way so why look at it as competition and not just you know say all right actually you know whoever’s contributing to that path that we all on is actually great and and this is this is how I look at and this is what makes me excited and the other part obviously is I’m sharing like a million corporate links like uh for seven years now and now I get to work with you guys we we get to work with you a lot more we we you know we do appreciate the academy we do think it’s great content I think that’s the other thing that’s important for me and and I think for all of us in the team is if we wouldn’t believe it’s actually great stuff that you’re doing it wouldn’t feel feel good as well so this is the other thing right so we do believe there’s there’s great content and great research and insights that you’re playing me and then obviously I mean there’s there’s so much that we can learn from each other like what what just came up in this conversation now well maybe we should look at the Pioneers within big corporations and promote some of these stories a bit more and and here you go that could be the next big step making a little bit more impact even so this is the stuff that’s that’s really cool about this partnership I think there’s so many things that we don’t even see yet that as soon as we start talking more and more and actually we started talking also this year a lot more already there was already cool things coming up and this is this is what I’m really looking forward to and then uh let’s see what we create from here but uh it will be cool stuff coming I’m sure yeah and I think this is also the the whole idea that we’re promoting right we that we want people who are enthusiastic about this topic to come together um if they share the same values then think about how can we actually promote that even more to a wider community and bring more people into this but also among ourselves connect more and share knowledge and insights and and stories and and to really help this help turning this into a global movement for change [Music] I I love that a global movement for change is definitely um it’s a it’s coming up in many conversations and um it doesn’t take one right it takes many uh to come together so we’re very very I mean on behalf also of Life Sciences right we’re very excited to jump into this partnership uh cold water and just explore what’s in there and see what we can energize and uh really make impactful change happen so thank you and uh yeah I am I have one question but I think um there’s also a few uh that I wanted to bring in from the audience but just one question about this partnership for a moment um how do you how would you like to see people engaging in this like people outside of Life Sciences and of corporate Rebels how do you see uh the people that you influence uh that are following you and stuff how do you want them to get engaged in this partnership um well what we so what we noticed quite a lot is that we get a lot of requests from people and companies around the world that they want to do something with um the content that we put out there so they want to put it into practice there so um that’s great but we don’t offer that um luckily with you guys as partners we do um so I think like we really want people to come on to to come join us in this fight for better workplaces whether that be through joining the corporate Rebels Academy and connecting with all of us over there um and and with many other Pioneers who luckily have joined that platform as well um but also to to then start working with you guys to implement some of these changes make it come to life I think that’s that’s that’s that’s the main purpose of why we are collaborating to help more people to learn about these pioneers and to put these ideas into practice and so yeah engaging with us and on those levels would be uh would be very powerful I think in in growing this uh this community and movement around the world and I think for me really really similar right so there’s there’s things that we are known for that we’re good at right now and clients would ask us for and then there’s there’s um there’s you know the typical thing that there’s so many more building blocks that can be useful and it’s not always us who have the best answer for that so one is you know research insights Training Academy type of things obviously corporate weapons are much stronger there so um and and what what I find uh most useful there just looking from a client perspective I am a rebel in a corporation in some kind of organization this is what I need we can only provide that part there’s other people can provide other parts and I think this is this is how we need to think about it because like just just like you said if you want to create that Global change that means we’ll be able to provide all of these kind of uh bits and pieces and you know what what I kind of want to avoid and this is uh sorry for anyone who’s watching that but uh you know rather than asking one of the big consultancies to get your typical 25 year old squat analysis and then five other things that that you usually do might not engage with the experts so kind of for me corporate Rebels is is kind of the starting point or maybe the first big milestone and making some of these bigger things happening and you know there’s other great people out there who have incredibly interesting know-how and we had some of those guys here on the living room already and and so the question is how do we bring all of these together that clients actually recognize look there’s a whole Community you can tap into and I think the community probably has everything you need the question is how do you figure out who to who to tap for what kind of stuff basically so if you create something like that you know here’s your easy this is who you tap which kind of topic is actually what would be an amazing achievement probably takes another year or two or maybe three let’s see and then uh but that that will be my vision for it yeah and also I think the the diversity of the movement should also be reflected in in what we do and what many others do right that um some people would love to jump on the academy learn from pioneers and then go and test it for on their own they don’t need anything else other people might just want to read a couple of blog posts and then go and put it into practice which is great as well and then other people might not want all of that content they just want to work with you guys for example to start applying some of these ideas and I think that’s the could be the beauty as well that sometimes you have just a lot of different people a lot of different organizations with different needs and we should all provide some some help and some support there so that people can find whoever it is that they want to work with and get those changes done thank you you’re truly right about that there’s so many entry points into making the transformative change happen and it starts with what is the need of the client and what is the challenge that you want to tackle so yeah thanks for allowing us to be um working together on this journey for change it’s a it’s a yeah it’s something that we’re very excited about and um yeah I’m pretty sure like there will be more to come around this topic uh in the future and um yeah I’m just like oh the hour flew by uh very quickly so we’re now five minutes into uh closing this uh conversation but it has been very very energizing and I hope that our audience are also enjoying this conversation um uh before I ask for your final uh words um I just want to invite uh people to um check out the upcoming events uh and uh Ken will show that in shortly so we will have a couple of living room conversations happening on the 21st of March and the 3rd of April so you can scan that QR code and also we hope to see you the employee experience impact Forum happening in Amsterdam uh at the hotel move and pick and if you are scanning this QR code please make sure to use live Sciences in the checkout so you get 20 off the tickets so yeah it’s just a little gift to our viewers and also um a little earlier um Pym mentioned about uh the company called cresos so if you’re interested in that we will post that link on the comments on the chat and here also you can see it in uh in LinkedIn and um yeah do check it out if you’re interested and if there’s any questions you can just reach out to the team who’s uh keeping an eye on this LinkedIn page great um yeah so again thank you for staying with us for this hour and uh I also want to invite everyone if you haven’t checked out the corporate Rebels app I have been on it every day since I joined so I’m very excited if you could join the conversations there it’s it’s really rich and it’s uh it’s also sometimes very provocative that it keeps you asking questions about what can I change in my system so yeah we will see you there and interact with you more there and uh so with that um uh Pam and Tim thank you for joining me for this hour of uh really like exploring what we can do together and also sharing that with our followers and our audience um yeah I just want to give the space spam for you first um what would be a final word of advice you want to give to our um audience today uh now for mainly thanks for uh to people for joining thanks you guys for organizing um yeah we continue fighting for better workplaces if there’s anything we can do to support you let us know um through our website for example or through our social media channels um most importantly just give it a try like try small new ways of working uh Implement some ideas experiment fill and and just learn along the way because you can go so far already just by setting up some small experiments in your own team in your own organization that will really bring you the benefits of new ways of working and unleashing passion and all the stuff that we talked about today so um yeah be a bit of a rebel I think my main message would be so it’s a that’s that’s probably always a good message try try to be a rebel and and if you’re not then you know uh think why why that might be fun and and I think that’s uh there’s a nice quote from Einstein that that I use quite a bit which is you know uh the world we’re living in including our companies and processes and everything has been created by our thinking which means only if you change your way of thinking you will be able to change whatever we are we’re living in and I think this is uh I mean conversations like these at least help me uh to you know question my thinking and and rethink some of the of the narratives I have in mind so I guess encourage everyone to have a look at living room conversations have a look at corporate Grabbers blog join the app obviously it’s a good one uh and just try something really I I think it doesn’t matter what you do as long as you do something is is already a good starting point yeah yeah again to both of both conversation and also exploring all the possibilities of what we can do with a partnership and also with the people that we feel accountable for in in a way right so we are doing this work uh not for us not for organizations but truly to see a world changing and just to see truly that impactful shift uh for for the organizations that we work with and even for the society as a whole right so thank you and uh thanks for joining us and uh if there’s anything um please do reach out to us um life sciences and also at corporate Rebels and join us in this mission thank you thank you very much thank you everyone