LRC - Designing Experiences

Designing Experiences in the Virtual and Hybrid Space

July 8, 2021


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In this conversation, we invite Christian Bernhardt to our Living Room as we discuss micro-habit and how they can help you to become an agile leader. Christian coaches, trains, speaks and consults to help people and companies improve their communication so we are excited to hear his inputs about our topic.


Rhea: Rhea Ong Yiu (Host)

Maja= Maja Knobel (Host)

Laila= Laila von Alvensleben  (Guest)

RHEA: Hi welcome everybody to the LIVEforward Institute Living Room Conservations. This afternoon I will be your host, Rhea Ong Yiu and together with my colleague Maja Knobel. We will be tackling the conversation of designing experiences in the virtual and hybrid spaces.

So what is LIVEforward Institute? LIVEforward Institute is a yeah, it’s a new place a part of life sciences where we create experiences and education and we wanna offer you a bit of, different approach to how we learn and how we play in the workplace. So this afternoon, we will be talking about stuff that is very close to our heart in the virtual and hybrid spaces. You might be familiar with, you know what we have experienced during the pandemic where we are really working very much remotely with a lot of our colleagues and how did we cope with this. So these were the questions that we wanted to kind of bring to the surface and how we still created engagement, we still made work fun despite the distance. 

So yeah thanks everyone for joining us this afternoon via Facebook live also via YouTube live thank you. We want to invite you to come and ask questions to join us in this whole conversation this afternoon. So let me introduce you to our guest. So how did we get to know Laila? So Laila von Alvensleben is from mural and we have been following what mural has been doing during the whole pandemic and it’s amazing what they have produced as a way of engaging their workforce. Using creativity, using a lot of their tools and also you know a lot of virtual tools by creating experiences around that, they’re able to create our workforces super high performing that’s really super engaged and we just want to pick Laila’s brain a little bit on how they did this and maybe we can walk out of this conversation really feeling inspired and you know some new ideas ignited. So we hope that you will also share these experiences with us. Laila would you like to join me here in the living room?

LAILA: Yes, thank you Rhea for the great introduction and hello, might as well hi everyone I’m Laila. I’m head of culture and collaboration at mural. Mural for those who may not have heard of it yet, is a collaboration platform. It’s like an online whiteboard where people can visually collaborate at the same time so you can add digital sticky notes or images or text and it basically replaces that physical wall that you may have been using in your office to collaborate. 

So as a head of culture and collaboration I do quite a lot of things. Including you know seeing how we can live by our values and things like that and seeing how employees are engaged at the company, finding ways for people to bond and connect with their other colleagues, and also looking at how we can work better remotely internally. So one of the things I’m doing now is writing a remote work playbook and also organizing company retreats or off sites. That’s a little bit about what I do! 

MAJA: Great and we’re really curious! Thank you so much.

RHEA: Maja.

MAJA: Yeah no I’m really I just wanted to get the conversation going. We were really curious to hear. You know how you have you as mira as the company have transported this into the virtual world, because we come from a place where retreats and face to face was the way to do things and we’ve all experienced this in the last year. How things turned around, so this is really great to get some inspiration here. And maybe for everybody online from different channels, so this is really a conversation between the three of us and also with all of you. So if you have comments, if you have questions please do post them and we will pick up your questions in our conservation. So this is a live exchange of our living rooms. Thank you. 

RHEA: Thanks Maja. Before we go into mural maybe it would be nice to kind of show a little bit our audience what we tried to do ourselves right. Within LIVEforward we’ve also tried to pivot, we’ve tried to experiment in so many things and we want to share with you this little video of things that we did just a little bit collection of what we have experienced during this pandemic and the creativity that came out of it.

JULIA: Good morning my name is Julia, I’ll be giving you this link to our welcome kit. It includes our main agenda and their fun festival map that you can use to navigate through our 26 hour events.

RHEA: Thank you for that video Ken. So yeah Laila you can see how mural played a part and the stuff that we did and we really want to lend some inspiration to people who people who are following us as well. Maybe as a first question right, my what I’m really curious is how did you come up with these amazing ideas? I’m just like blown away very time there’s a new retreat and you write about it and you share that with the world and I’m like, wow I’m super inspired. Like how did we come up with that. 

LAILA: First I just want to say that looking at the video you just showed now, that’s just really incredible to see from a graphic point of view and a visual point of view it. Aside from the fact whether you use mural or not, it looks super super engaging and I said there were these like audio spatial environments I use as well so that looks absolutely great. Of course, when the new site launches, everyone’s too busy giving each other high fives to notice that the new design is a near carbon copy of a major competitor, or that you completely neglected to ask existing customers why they liked shopping with your company in the first place. There’s always a lot to learn, a lot to do, and a lot to consider when you’re a beginner – not to mention the fact that technology is constantly evolving, new software is being released, and new trends are coming at you rapid-fire. Truth be told, it can get a little overwhelming. While this scale is not technically based on realism as people’s faces are generally the same size in real life (and Ryan Gosling is not a giant to my knowledge), the dramatic scaling up and down of faces helps viewers to get a quick grasp on each character’s level of importance in the film, as well as making for an effective design.

We wanted to find facilitators and we also thought it’d be really cool to have a passport that would allow us to go from place to place. So the idea to answer your question Maja, the idea really came from a group of volunteers that helped me put this together, and I wouldn’t have been able to do it without them. 

MAJA: This is great and there was just a shout put then on your internal messaging. I don’t know what you’re using but I guess everybody well, the people who could bring their creativity and felt they could dedicate the time and they just showed up right and exactly right. That’s brilliant and actually I’m looking at Rhea, you know just reflecting on our ways of coming up with this well, creative less creative more creative events. It’s also I think that collaboration and just this well co-working and well providing that space to come up with ideas and with the brainstorm of ideas and then we’ll disregard some and go with that one idea that resonates with so many is I really don’t know. If I compare with our events as well, this is where the energy gets going and then you really focus on what you want to make and the great creativity. I love the passport thing, maybe you can tell a bit more about this whole journey and what kind of requisites you had there and ideas that you brought in.

LAILA: So the tour, the idea was that we were talking like a mural airlines flight and going from place to place and instead of picking cities we decided to pick some themes or like or regional places I think there’s another image with right so these are zoom backgrounds. Students attend college for many reasons, including to learn about the world, to develop critical thinking, and to hone employable skills. In recent years, colleges and universities have struggled to determine how to include or if they can include a variety of ideas that challenge students’ understanding of charged issues in their curriculum and in the academic environment. Students, faculty and administrators naturally bring their own experience and perspectives to the classroom. The purpose of this conversation is to share experiences that create greater understanding of what helps or hinders the free exchange of diverse ideas in the higher education learning environment. We are in an age of wonder and amazement with technology. It can go anywhere with us and we can be reachable at any time. We use technology to order our groceries, navigate our cities, keep up with breaking news, family members living away and in some cases remain connected to our politicians and faith-based communities. So many of us are reachable and can respond immediately to beeping, buzzing and ringing of texts, emails and phone calls. We like what we feel when our phones ring or ping us with a new message and that makes us want more. Some experts have have suggested that technology is controlling us, that we have lost control of it…like an addiction. For huge numbers of people jobs provide income and a sense of purpose. We are fast approaching a time when artificial intelligence and robots will be trusted do a better job than humans at everything from driving to diagnosing medical conditions and more. But our economy is structured to thrive with a robust engaged workforce.

So somebody would speak to you and say okay, the whole point was to collect as many stamps from different teams as possible. So you would ask them what team are you on at the end of your conversation and then they’d say can the I’m the bus stamp around the camera stamp then you would stamp your passport with these stickers and try to get as many stamps as you could to meet people across the company. 

MAJA: And that’s brilliant I love how you know you bring in this gamification part and also connecting people so bring different aspects with those visuals. I was really inspired to see all these.. I mean knowing what we try to accomplish as well and this is for me, that’s you know one step further. One level further to what we could even imagine.

And yeah, one question from my side was or reflecting on what you shared in the article as well was that trying to bring in the physical experience with the sleeping mask. I don’t know the lip thoughts or whatever with that virtual experience. And usually there’s some things to take into account right, because it usually doesn’t go to plan and not everybody gets what they need. So do you want to elaborate on that limit?

LAILA: Yeah, so you know I was thinking what would make this virtual trip really cool is if people actually felt that they were in an airplane or they were at the island when we arrived at the island. And so with the volunteers we thought what if when we’re at the island you smell sunscreen. Bluntly stated, either kind of field trip can be a monumental waste of time. Despite their pitfalls, there are potential strengths associated with both actual and virtual field trips. Moreover, the strengths offered by one kind of field trip may help alleviate the concerns associated with the other. Indeed, virtual and actual field trips can serve as complementary components in a powerful instructional approach. . A cursory look at the site suggests that it is nothing more than a glorified travel brochure. But then, it occurs to us that a cursory tour through the actual fort might lead an unprepared observer to believe that it, too, is nothing more than “just another history place.” What if we used the virtual site to help students prepare for an actual trip and to extend that trip when we were back in the classroom? Better yet, what if we tried the radical notion of using the website, not as a resource to “get answers” about the real world, but as an instrument to write questions about it? What follows is a plan we have devised to harness students’ curiosity—often unbridled, chaotic, and without direction—in such a way that both actual and virtual field trips can realize their full potential. Anticipate positive student experiences at the actual fort site. Activities at this “living history” museum range from tea parties and 1820s immersion experiences to birthday parties. Advance planning to check for availability (and possible student birthdays) will help teacher field questions of “can we do that?”

I can say is I spent 15 hours on Amazon individually ordering the same package for every person entering the dresses like I didn’t have time to see if that like an external person could do this it was just me doing this for 15 hours. So that as I learned how to kind of go through Amazon without thinking anymore. Some things got lost in the mail or came late but that’s part of the experience.

RHEA: Yeah. If I may ask Laila, how many people were in the event?

LAILA: We had more than 250 people.

MAJA: Wow.

RHEA: So yeah it was a lot of amazon free, yeah.

LAILA: Amazon was about so, Argentina alone was maybe around 80 people or something? So Amazon was 100 and something. Yeah and also like different kind of Amazon platforms like not all countries have the same thing so like the astronaut food I couldn’t find it for some countries like Germany or even where I live. So I ordered like I know dried apricots or dried strawberries. Like anything that was kind of dehydrated and you know. 

MAJA: Could substitute that?

LAILA: Yeah, we managed and then some people receive their package after. The retreat which is a you know which it’s some people complain but that’s you know just part of the whole COVID situation as well was that a lot of orders took a long time to arrive.

RHEA: The one thing that-

MAJA: Go ahead.

RHEA: Am I? one thing that I like about the whole experience right like where you took everybody along with Zoom backgrounds, and different stages in the journey. I always tell this to my team like you know we are creating experiences, and this experience you’re building the stage together unlike when you are going to a conference venue the venue is decorated by itself. But now in the virtual space we are decorating the venue together, as a full group who’s showing up right? So it’s important that you know we create that experience. Like what you did and that I think that’s a very good tip who’s wanting to organize something more engaging is to engage them with visuals as well.

LAILA: Yeah, with visuals and also with the interaction part I think is a huge element because some quite a few employees admitted to me after that they were skeptical of what this could look like. They thought it was just going to be like a webinar and they would get bord and they were ready to like jump out of Zoom and because at every step like every 20 minutes or so we would change activity and change destination and get them to do some things like open your package. Do this, change your background and now we’re gonna do virtual escape room or now we’re gonna do networking with people with a passport. Then we also had a mural band, recorded a video of them like I created a band for the event with people who play instruments. So they did a show and then we had investors coming in and talking, so it was always different and I think the interaction part is super important like you don’t just want to talk at people.

MAJA: Definitely. I think that that’s one of those core concepts. How to make these an experience and not just yeah being told or talked right. And I was just wondering whether we want to reflect a little bit you know on the thinking behind or the logistics preparation. And we’re just looking you know thinking maybe hybrid events as well, the things that you have to take into account right so in this case you only have 10 days to prepare and you made the impossible possible you know by ordering everything.

And I’m just looking at Rhea you know, sometimes things don’t work out as planned right. One time I think we had some cocktail mixing and we sent out some you know, survival pack for cocktails and the glasses broke for a lot and let’s just think you know things that one has to take into account when planning things how important is it that ever as well. Most of the people that’s on time and rights versus well maybe we just do something virtual and yet try to make it as experiential as right as possible so thanks to consider, yeah.

LAILA: Yeah there’s a lot that went into thinking as well about like are these absolutely crucial to do the activity or not and actually it wasn’t? The more crucial things were things that we could deliver online, so the templates that we had in mural at the end of the day that was where people were interacting the most. Everything else was just kind of like dressing up for a party but like if you’re not dressed up, it doesn’t matter yeah. And then we have the other-

RHEA: Sorry, sorry to interrupt. I’m just very curious like at the level that you have organized this stuff in mural right. There are a few people maybe outside the mural? If you’re running this in a public event were not everyone has the skill to actually play with an interactive whiteboard, what are thoughts that you could recommend like what can we do to like get over that fear? Of the tooling, get over that like anxiety over messing it up or like how can we engage more people participate in this type of exercises.

LAILA: Yeah, that’s a very good question. So actually this world tour, what inspired me to do it was that I had done something similar in April last year so just at the beginning of the lockdown here in Europe. Some people move through low levels quickly and have a hard time overcoming higher levels. Others may take a long time to work through lower levels, but they find the fear easier to face once they’ve succeeded at the lower levels. The most helpful relaxation technique can also vary. You might find visualization helps you relax the most, for example. Regardless of your fear or the length of time you spend working through each level, the principles remain the same.

We’re gonna dress up and in silver clothing and we’re gonna and it worked you know and some people were like this is incredible day. They weren’t they’re not maybe all very tech savvy, so they didn’t even know how the hell did she you know, record her screen. But if you’re used to doing this day in day out, it was pretty simple to set up.

MAJA: And I love that part about well, making it personal right so it’s not just go find some help whatever it is but actually make it specific so also for any other events actually that prepping that little short, three to four minutes intro can actually make it difference to the actual event so.

LAILA: Yeah. I think always sending, I mean if it was a workshop I would send some pre-work before so I would send the mural in advance maybe or whatever it is that we’re using. If it’s slack I would get them to sign up for slack before, use it a bit so you do that maybe a week or two before the workshop. Get people used to the tools and maybe you can even set up a short like 20 minute event where people just come and practice with the tool before the event, and it doesn’t have to be the same tools that it doesn’t have to be the same mural for example that you’re using for the event but it’s just like, here’s what this is like and now you’re ready and now you know we’ll meet in a week. 

MAJA: For the ones who need it right? So the patient will assess yourself and if you don’t need it, you can.

LAILA: Exactly it’s not mandatory.

MAJA: Yeah, perfect yeah. So keeping making it simple and keeping it simple also during the event I think is well yeah. That’s our credo for sure.

LAILA: Yeah, exactly. And we did do another more complex retreat I don’t know if you want me to talk about that now or if you? Yeah. So I mean it was just it the one in August was a very experimental one, it was the first time we did a virtual retreat and then on was it March this year, yeah first of March we did another one which is much bigger we had more than 400 people, uh do a retreat together and that was that. We spent like a month and a half planning which is still not enough I feel bad. But we made it, and that was a really big experiment which I don’t know if we want to show the video first or if I should explain it a little bit more first. 

RHEA: Yeah and for a little bit yeah. For those who are curious about it, we could show them the video and then Laila can talk through it afterwards and maybe if you have questions, go ahead don’t wait. Ask your questions on Facebook and YouTube, we’re here we’re listening to you. We’re happy to take your questions on board. So I’d like to invite Ken to show the video.

LAILA: Thank you.

[A video was played]

MAJA: Wow. What an event, amazing. So then, can you hear me? yeah I hear you. 

RHEA: Yeah, I hear you.

LAILA: Hi. Sorry I’ve had a little connection issue I think. Yes, so that video is a glimpse into the second virtual retreat that we did. The first one was three hours long, the second one was three days long so completely different. Team retreats often end up being boxed into two days and packed with a lot of content. Our own in-person retreats used to work in a similar way, with two days of deep work, jam-packed with content. But when shifting to virtual retreats, the idea of two full days on Zoom sounded… exhausting. Remote retreats are the heartbeat of Parabol. They offer a chance to take stock, plan ahead, be creative and also have a breather and connect before the next quarter of work. We don’t want people to go away from this experience exhausted. In previous retreats when we met in person, this used to take one whole day. Because company strategy is a big thing, and some folks like to think slowly about big things, we wanted to try making it async. Frankly, we also didn’t want to take eight hours or two days Zoom meetings to get through it. The year has let us re-imagine how retreats can work, and stretched the boundaries of remote collaboration. We were happy with our original version of a virtual team retreat, but we’re even more pleased with how we’ve evolved our practice. All that said… we really want to meet in person! It feels like there’s a point where we’ve got to know each other as far as we possibly can online. We want to take our working relationships to the next level.

Some talks from speakers around how our minds work and also around magic. And we had some team building workshops that were mandatory, so there were only like three things that were mandatory and everything else you could just pick. There were more than a hundred activities going on for three days. So, yeah.

MAJA: And I love that how you well how you integrated also that private part right? So there were several pictures actually or videos with kids there. As well as being mindful of that so this whole aspect of wholeness in this well remote work, life is I found it quite brilliant how this was integrated and it was one of the comments as well right. That was so special so in that event right? That you could bring your friend along and actually watch a show. Wow that made it special so I really..

LAILA: Yeah and we had also I just remembered I think what the fourth one was a category. It was these spaces where they were audio, spatial, experimental platforms that we were testing out so there’s a platform called Virbela you’re in a virtual campus and you can build your own 3D avatar and dress yourself up as you want. Remote work is supposed to be liberating, not exhausting. Video chat and other tools leave us out of touch and craving social interaction. Virbela is the first virtual world platform built specifically to solve the challenges of remote collaboration. Meet, host events, hold classes, and service your entire remote workforce all in an immersive and engaging 3D world.

Your face shows and that was super fun because I would even go on my own into these platforms and just hang out and explore the islands. It was fun, it wasn’t like I always had to be with people right so yeah. 

RHEA: That is really cool and it reminds me to one particular tool that was quite a hit in some of our events. It’s called the spatial chat, so it’s similar to the Virbela but it’s with your full picture right so it’s not an app bar, it’s like your own and then you can move around and your voice your audio becomes louder or softer depending on the distance. You have a megaphone or you can broadcast to everybody as well in the same room and you can move around different rooms. We’ve used this for gaming and I think Maja has a had a blast in this platform as well.

MAJA: We’ll dance Tango in that.

LAILA: Nice. 

MAJA: And when I reflect I find it interesting you know, there’s so many tools out there. There’s so many platforms and really being able to pick and choose what you want to accomplish with a certain. So I was just reflecting you know seeing these avatars there and I was really thinking about our spatial chat. 

What you have to take into account when picking the additional tools that you want to use.

LAILA: I think these kind of tools also worked really well for people who are more introverted and who don’t necessarily like this kind of forced socializing so there were a lot of people who you know loved being in these spaces. But as people began to adjust to isolation, they started to find ways to bring their outside social lives into their homes. Living rooms that were once a sanctuary from people-filled offices, gyms, bars, and coffee shops became all those things at once.

Like there’s nobody forcing you to anything except these you know one or two team building workshops.

RHEA: Yeah and borrowing from the open space thing right this is the law of two feet where people feel like I am empowered to like explore the space. That is there and also experience from my own eyes, from my own holiness emerging. So it’s really cool that you interact right because being inclusive in the virtual space is so important .

LAILA: Yeah. And also with the time zones that was super hard so I mean I was really grateful to the people I was working with. We had about 15 facilitators. A very conventional person may “hear” all attempts at communication as radical if the speaker has an unconventional physical appearance. A conservative member of the faculty at an urban university in the United States may hear a bearded colleague say “Perhaps some of the experimental programs, such as the bachelor’s degree in general studies, would serve the needs of our particular group of students better than the traditional degree programs seem to do,” and may angrily dismiss the idea as an attempt to downgrade the “standards” of the university.

It creates these little like intimate moments and there’s like anecdotes that are created. Memories that are created together because it was only a small group of people who experienced that together.

RHEA: Very cool. Maybe I’ll step back a little bit and just ask very practical questions because this for any person who is starting in the facilitation journey, starting in even creation and design in the virtual space. 

And I just want to ask you Laila and Maja as well like what are the non-negotiables that you feel like you should share with our audience today like when.

LAILA: Maja you go first. 

MAJA: Well I mean I’m smiling I mean the very simple things right have the right equipment so have a good connection and well have good audio as well. 

In the event so those are the basics and yet not to be not to be forgotten from our side. What would you like to add, Laila?

LAILA: I would add non-negotiables, I think asking yourself what outcome do you want by the end of like why are you doing this right. It’s not just like I want people to connect yeah. Understanding your default signature helps you know what you’re working with. This is a particularly critical step toward growth as a negotiator, because there’s one thing you can guarantee when it comes to negotiations: Every time you negotiate, you’ll be there. You can’t ask yourself to leave the room when the negotiations start.

I think a lot of retreats have kind of the same purpose but then there can always be a theme that makes a little bit more different than the previous one.

MAJA: And really what do you want the people to go away with right, after that event. What is that one thing that they will take away that they will remember from that so really asking that question yeah.

RHEA: So Maja we were talking about this, we were talking about this and one of them. So Maja and I we are running this course on virtual experience design and facilitation so it’s kind of designing your workshops from like a 30 person participant all the way up to if you want to go in a more advanced level.

Did you have any further questions or anything maybe your audience have something to ask us?

MAJA: Yeah I’m wondering whether our audience would like to do something. I would have tons of questions.

LAILA: Wow. Well while we’re waiting, yeah Laila you had something?

LAILA: No I was just agreeing with what you just said before about purpose being really important and I think yeah knowing how to how you will measure success is also important like I think I’m not always the best person in terms of quantifying things, but I do think there’s you know.

It’s like the things that I changed from the first time around because people didn’t like then I made new differences and then I was like oh. We don’t like this new thing. It’s like okay well can’t you can’t please everyone.

RHEA: That’s also a very good learning. Yeah. So striking that balance between how do you please a majority and how do you still cater to what is the overall purpose, balancing that with engagement and everything right so I think that would be a good one. Hey we finally have one question! So how do you see virtual experiences develop in a post-covid, hybrid setting? And this is coming from one of our YouTube viewers, Franziska.

LAILA: Franziska a very good question. I think a post-covid hybrid setting well everything that is just looking at society around us as things open up there’s a lot of restrictions that we have to keep into consideration as we meet people in person, so I think that if we want to have people meet in person we will have to respect things like you know a bit of social distancing or limited like having bigger spaces so that there’s you know people can keep social distance if they want. And as for virtual experiences I mean I think that would be very hard would be to have like a group of people in one place joining through one platform.

I still think the best way to experience a virtual experience is to join individually from your computer, rather than like have a group of people in a room and then other people on their computers individually. So I don’t think the virtual experience would change that much I think, what would change a lot more is the in-person experience.

RHEA: Yeah. Yeah and I would agree to that. I personally had the experience of running a hybrid workshop where parts of the team were seated together in one location in China and another location in a different group location in Germany had a different group and few others were all around Europe were individual and I as a facilitator located somewhere. And the experience there was that, one audio is super important like the equipment that you have in those like created spaces, the audio has to be super clear and the equipment has to be good.

It’s so difficult to underestimate the distraction, that happens when people speak to each other in the same space right. That there it has an impact on inclusion, and being part of the whole conversation so I think setting the ground rules around that is so important as well. Like making sure that everybody understands that there are people outside of their own zones that will help, yeah. Make the conversation a bit better. I think it’s going to be very interesting once the world opens up right. Because this will be our reality. And Maja and I have been exploring like how can we do this better and I think Maja you can also share a little bit from our offsite, what we did and the experience there. 

MAJA: Yeah just maybe very shortly, I mean I’m just reflecting really ask yourself what you want to achieve with a given setting right. So just to get a few people together and not feel integrated with the rest will probably not be the right thing, versus being inclusive because one or two people can’t join because they’re maybe somewhere aware or well some health limitations so we really have to ask ourselves that question and yeah we experienced some challenges being inclusive and that audio seemed to be very important. What we also saw that you have to be really mindful of the sequence of talking for instance if you want to be inclusive in a hybrid environment because it’s so different so. I think that’s a whole other story and we would probably need another hour to elaborate on that. I think we’re just getting the prompt here that would be good to kind of start wrapping up and yeah I think we that I leave it at the hybrid event for this one.

RHEA: Yeah indeed and we do have something for you out there. We have a few courses that we’re offering where we really deep dive into this topic right, we look at how the design aspect, the tooling, the toolkit, the facilitation, the whole experience. We talked about it in one of our courses so maybe just. Ken is going to show you there are three QR codes here, these are some of the workshops that we are offering. 

The next living room conversation will be about performance management, it will be on the 24th of June and I think in a week or two from now we also have a webinar on agile culture essentials so as a company LIVEforward and life sciences, we are part of like this whole agility topic so we want to share with you what we have experienced on the floor. And also part of this conversation, we want to invite you to join us in the virtual experience design program which we are offering coming August. So with that I would bring back the floor to our guest, Laila do you have anything you would like to say as final words or invitation?

LAILA: Final words would be that if you are planning to set up a virtual retreat, even though you’ve seen all these things that I described today. You can start very very simple and start maybe with a two-hour experience. Work with other people and yeah don’t think you have to do something that is out of this world right away. It can be a little bit overwhelming. 

RHEA: Thank you. Maja?

MAJA: Yeah no it is a journey for all of us right so starting small and building up in that experience, I think is a very good takeaway so thank you Laila for being here with us today. Yes great inspiration.

LAILA: Thanks a lot.

RHEA: Thank you everyone for joining us and we will see you in one of our events, see you later.

MAJA: Thank you.